[Oldschool] Debate #1

Off-topic has been hijacked by neo-cons and liberals, so let me re-introduce afterwind's debating style once again;

Do you agree that socialism is a failed ideology? if you disagree then please explain why you support murdering little children and creating artificial famines?

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Reply on advance: no andartes, the nazis weren't behind the collapse of the USSR on the 90s

I agree, but not that way.
Communism isnt Socialism,,,,,

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Reply for andartes/tito/idiot on advance: Both nazis and commies are idiotic and monsters,world would be much better place if they never existed.

It is a failed ideology because it creates Worker's Paradise. Human need to work to provide for himself or otherwise he fall.

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Well, the Nazis were not the cause for USSR collapse obviously, it was vice-versa, laziness was (explained above). But they did brainwash people into committing murder and torture when they (nazis) saw they will lose. Someone had to continue to kill life in North Asia, nazis were obsessed with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 17.04.2016 at 05:38

But they did brainwash people into committing murder and torture when they (nazis) saw they will lose.

And communism was not brainwashing?
Maybe the best synonime for brainwashing is exaclty - communism, with main goal to force the victim to succumb to the propaganda of
those who had brainwashed.

Before, during and after the war, they've introduced their own rules and laws, and with all those who were on the opposite side of the heavily charged.
Neither today, so many years after the second World War, no one knows the exact number of victims of the communist regime. All those who had a different view of the world were criminals, butchers and ethnic enemies. People have served their truth, and all those who knew the truth had to be kept a great secret deep inside themselves.

The legacy of the revolution, unity and brotherhood and similiar nonsense crap for years were slogans that are generations wash brains. In order to destroy the national consciousness banned all they had anything to do with a nation, a by-product review all are mixed marriages. On mixed marriages were encouraged especially in multiethnic communities, and well thought-out plan was to get out of them create a new nation that would eventually outnumber the existing nations. Today, this nation does not exist, as no state created by the communists.

كتب بواسطة Croat, 17.04.2016 at 05:59

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 17.04.2016 at 05:38

But they did brainwash people into committing murder and torture when they (nazis) saw they will lose.

And communism was not brainwashing?
Maybe the best synonime for brainwashing is exaclty - communism, with main goal to force the victim to succumb to the propaganda of
those who had brainwashed.

Before, during and after the war, they've introduced their own rules and laws, and with all those who were on the opposite side of the heavily charged.
Neither today, so many years after the second World War, no one knows the exact number of victims of the communist regime. All those who had a different view of the world were criminals, butchers and ethnic enemies. People have served their truth, and all those who knew the truth had to be kept a great secret deep inside themselves.

The legacy of the revolution, unity and brotherhood and similiar nonsense crap for years were slogans that are generations wash brains. In order to destroy the national consciousness banned all they had anything to do with a nation, a by-product review all are mixed marriages. On mixed marriages were encouraged especially in multiethnic communities, and well thought-out plan was to get out of them create a new nation that would eventually outnumber the existing nations. Today, this nation does not exist, as no state created by the communists.

bla,you fked up oldschool debating.

كتب بواسطة Croat, 17.04.2016 at 05:59

And communism was not brainwashing?
Maybe the best synonime for brainwashing is exaclty - communism, with main goal to force the victim to succumb to the propaganda of
those who had brainwashed.

Before, during and after the war, they've introduced their own rules and laws, and with all those who were on the opposite side of the heavily charged.
Neither today, so many years after the second World War, no one knows the exact number of victims of the communist regime. All those who had a different view of the world were criminals, butchers and ethnic enemies. People have served their truth, and all those who knew the truth had to be kept a great secret deep inside themselves.

The legacy of the revolution, unity and brotherhood and similiar nonsense crap for years were slogans that are generations wash brains. In order to destroy the national consciousness banned all they had anything to do with a nation, a by-product review all are mixed marriages. On mixed marriages were encouraged especially in multiethnic communities, and well thought-out plan was to get out of them create a new nation that would eventually outnumber the existing nations. Today, this nation does not exist, as no state created by the communists.

I'll just reply to this like Tik-Tok: Strawman.

(you're hitting the pinata)

The only acceptable kind of Socialism is National Socialism.(Which isn't perfect either, it's just more practically functioning and most importantly, HONEST about what it does)
Socialism has to be the biggest fraud in human history. They propone anarchism and then they murder the true anarchist followers and style themselves as such and liberators while expanding state bureaucracy to new heights.

Thank god the USSR and the influence of this abhorrent ideology ended.

كتب بواسطة 5th SS Wiking, 18.04.2016 at 04:03

The only acceptable kind of Socialism is National Socialism.(Which isn't perfect either, it's just more practically functioning and most importantly, HONEST about what it does)
Socialism has to be the biggest fraud in human history. They propone anarchism and then they murder the true anarchist followers and style themselves as such and liberators while expanding state bureaucracy to new heights.

Thank god the USSR and the influence of this abhorrent ideology ended.

National Socialism is 'Socialism only for us'. It doesn't even make sence since Socialism is based on globalism, internationalism, world trade and unions. Atleast Socialism in USSR lasted 70 years, NatSoc in Germany only 10. I believe that is enough proof to say its worse and bigger failure.

If Human Rights are not rooted in country's socialist system, then they are not socialist.

And to quote Learster:

اقتبس:

Socialism was sold by mobsters who wanted power. If you apply proper Socialism, democratic one, it will work just as fine as Capitalism, probably won't be as dynamic as Capitalism, but i would choose it any day over Capitalism.

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 18.04.2016 at 05:40

National Socialism is 'Socialism only for us'. It doesn't even make sence since Socialism is based on globalism, internationalism, world trade and unions. Atleast Socialism in USSR lasted 70 years, NatSoc in Germany only 10. I believe that is enough proof to say its worse and bigger failure.
If Human Rights are not rooted in country's socialist system, then they are not socialist.

National Socialism lasted 12 years and collapsed due to external military pressure. Stalinist Socialism lasted 69 years and collapsed due to corruption and economic stagnation while the economy of Nazi Germany progressed immensely under the Nazis. Nazis created jobs, USSR killed and starved civilians.
If your statement about socialism and human rights were to be true, socialism has never existed.

كتب بواسطة 5th SS Wiking, 18.04.2016 at 12:11

National Socialism lasted 12 years and collapsed due to external military pressure.

External mil. pressure? You mean defeat in WW2 after Germany used mil. pressure on European countries? That is legitimate i believe since every nation have right to defend and unite with other oppressed countries against the oppressor.

National Socialism promoted expansionism and militarism and there was no other ending for them beside defeat in the war, total devastation and millions dead and suffering.

Socialism promote Worldwide Revolution to destroy bourgeois and unite the workers, but using workers, not military. German National Socialism used military to promote state and ethnic expansionism, not liberation for workers of all races, colors and languages. Which doesn't make sense, it's not socialism then.

كتب بواسطة 5th SS Wiking, 18.04.2016 at 12:11

Stalinist Socialism lasted 69 years and collapsed due to corruption and economic stagnation while the economy of Nazi Germany progressed immensely under the Nazis.

Immensely? They only reduced unemployment by conscripting million workers to build autoban, infrastructure and housing thus inflating the money and developing debt. Hitler was bribed by corporations and industrialists to provide them with workers (and later slave labor) in return for high-tech war machines for expansion. He killed Strasser for god's sake who wanted to implement socialism and welfare to help the Germans and not militarize the society to push it into new world war.

Not to mention Hitler's paranoia when he purged nazi party figures in Night of the Long knives/Khristallnacht. He even asked for military and population to give oath to him personally, swearing allegience to Hitler instead to the State, Nation or Race, or whatever his policy was. He was a dictator.

كتب بواسطة 5th SS Wiking, 18.04.2016 at 12:11

Nazis created jobs, USSR killed and starved civilians.

Maybe it was vice-versa: Nazis started WWII and killed/starved millions of civilians. USSR created jobs and made technology and education available to the masses:


- Free education
- Freedom for women (muslim central asian) to attend school (muslims banned their wifes to get educated)
- Freedom for abortion
- Freedom to divorce
- Minimum regulations for divorce procedure
- Free childcare/daycare, creation of network of daycares
- Free healthcare
- Creation of social help network and welfare
- Free use of State machines and tools for industry and agriculture; like tractors, harvesters, sickles, hammers, shovels
- Free advices from R&D facilities concerning chemical and natural products for the farmers and their seeds & crops
- Free vocational training in the military including car driving, truck driving, tractor driving and getting a licence
- Rise in literacy from 20% (Russian Empire) to 90% (USSR)
- Life expectancy rised for 10 years (highest average in Europe in one time)
- Free vaccination, erradication of some both pesky and deadly diseases
- Child benefit for all citizens no matter if Ukrainian, Estonian or Kazakh, Tajik
- Encouragement to have 5 children, healthcare, welfare, daycare and education is provided free
- 15 to 30 days paid vacation a year, worker choose destination, seaside (usually summer), spa (usually for older, tired or injured), or mountain (usually winter for skiing), including the family, and if agreed, all workers go together with their families thus socializing
- Creation of Ethnic Republics for minorities out of the Russian Empire: Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Tajikistan, Estonia
- Equal representation in the Union Parliament, every republic had their own parliament and their Communist Party (that mean mini Lithuania and Estonia could outvote giant Russia)
- Funding and promotion of minority culture, history and tradition, preserving their art, creation of museums and annual events to celebrate their culture
- Raising minority languages to official level on par with Russian, minority schools had 4.5 hours a week, learning their own language and only 1.5 hours a week learning Russian (russification non-existent)
- Scholarship to all minorities and citizens of the USSR no matter their color, race, language or religion, if they are talented State funded them to proceed education and job searching
- Unlimited resources, financials, freedom and space for scientists and their R&D facilities
- Housing for everyone with minimal cost, deducted by workers(owner) salary each month
- Every 18 year old is entitled to housing
- Bachelors recieve 40m/2 house or appartment (depends where they want to live)
- Couples recieve 60m/2 housing
- Families with 2 to 4 children recieve 80m/2 housing
- Families with more than 4 children recieve 100 to 120m/2 housing
- When bachelor get married, he recieve larger housing while his previous house is given to another bachelor
- No homeless
- Largest industry in the world (not largest profitable, cash was not significant like in the West)
- Largest agriculture
- Largest chemical industry
- Largest nuclear capacity
- Superpower status achieved for only 25 years


Tell me how many people Nazis helped between 1933 and 1945? Not only they started WWII and are directly and indirectly responisble for 80 million deaths, they even recruited other nations to fight for them in the war. While USSR provided housing, electricity, clean water and education.

كتب بواسطة 5th SS Wiking, 18.04.2016 at 12:11

If your statement about socialism and human rights were to be true, socialism has never existed.

Could be true, but point is that Marx's writings are more philosophical then ideological, he said how it should be in his opinion, not how everyone should do. That's why there are Socialist Anarchists, Marxists-Leninists, Stalinists, Social Democrats, Conservative Socialists, Liberal Socialists, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Makhnovites. Each of them have their own version of Socialism or Communism. Unlike Nazism which only obey 1 man and his word is final, above every law. There is no debate in Nazism, only submission.

That's why i like USSR for real, practical achievements, rising standard of living, although they banned (political) opposiiton. But i also like Russian Empire/Russian Federation for protecting freedom, allowing theorists and scholars to research, think and make philosophical questions, while practical and real material achievements are failing. So as you can see, it's either freedom and failing or order and development.


clashes of ideologies/philosophies in Modern Russia

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 17.04.2016 at 01:58

Do you agree that socialism is a failed ideology? if you disagree then please explain why you support murdering little children and creating artificial famines?

This is what a call a meaningful question.

I have one similar: Do you agree Germany is a successful country? If you disagree then explain please why you support Rwandad genocide of Congo?

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2016 at 06:54

External mil. pressure? You mean defeat in WW2 after Germany used mil. pressure on European countries? That is legitimate i believe since every nation have right to defend and unite with other oppressed countries against the oppressor.

National Socialism promoted expansionism and militarism and there was no other ending for them beside defeat in the war, total devastation and millions dead and suffering.

Socialism promote Worldwide Revolution to destroy bourgeois and unite the workers, but using workers, not military. German National Socialism used military to promote state and ethnic expansionism, not liberation for workers of all races, colors and languages. Which doesn't make sense, it's not socialism then.

Immensely? They only reduced unemployment by conscripting million workers to build autoban, infrastructure and housing thus inflating the money and developing debt. Hitler was bribed by corporations and industrialists to provide them with workers (and later slave labor) in return for high-tech war machines for expansion. He killed Strasser for god's sake who wanted to implement socialism and welfare to help the Germans and not militarize the society to push it into new world war.

Not to mention Hitler's paranoia when he purged nazi party figures in Night of the Long knives/Khristallnacht. He even asked for military and population to give oath to him personally, swearing allegience to Hitler instead to the State, Nation or Race, or whatever his policy was. He was a dictator.

Maybe it was vice-versa: Nazis started WWII and killed/starved millions of civilians. USSR created jobs and made technology and education available to the masses:


-snip pro-ussr propaganda-

Tell me how many people Nazis helped between 1933 and 1945? Not only they started WWII and are directly and indirectly responisble for 80 million deaths, they even recruited other nations to fight for them in the war. While USSR provided housing, electricity, clean water and education.

Could be true, but point is that Marx's writings are more philosophical then ideological, he said how it should be in his opinion, not how everyone should do. That's why there are Socialist Anarchists, Marxists-Leninists, Stalinists, Social Democrats, Conservative Socialists, Liberal Socialists, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Makhnovites. Each of them have their own version of Socialism or Communism. Unlike Nazism which only obey 1 man and his word is final, above every law. There is no debate in Nazism, only submission.

That's why i like USSR for real, practical achievements, rising standard of living, although they banned (political) opposiiton. But i also like Russian Empire/Russian Federation for protecting freedom, allowing theorists and scholars to research, think and make philosophical questions, while practical and real material achievements are failing. So as you can see, it's either freedom and failing or order and development.

The Nazi government chose to prioritize its citizens before other inhabitants of the nation(As any government should imo), while the USSR claimed to represent everyone yet they were starved, the difference being that the USSR just failed at expanding the economy and having the peoples living standards increase while the Nazi starvations and genocides were state-sponsored. Therefore, in its own philosophy, National Socialism is much more viable.

As for the external military pressure part, the Nazis(remarkably for the preceding time period) did not collapse due to internal unrest but to actual military defeat. Remember, the war ended with only a few parts of Bohemia occupied by the Nazi government, AFTER their leader was found dead.
Unlike the Russian Empire, which you paradoxically seem to respect for freedom, that actually collapsed after military defeats showed the weakness of a state few liked and so came the revolution. Furthermore the Nazi defeat in World War II was far from 'the only outcome' considering at the start of the year 1942 the German Reich was largely seen as the number 1 military force in the world.

As for their defeat I'd blame it on the attempt to seize Moscow during winter 1941, since there is no way to beat a popular, authoritarian nation(Ukraine and the Baltic states being the few ones disliking the USSR) but total defeat which would have only been instilled by cutting off the Caucasus oil from the USSR's supply lines. You're free to make another topic to discuss the possibilities of Nazi victory in WW2 but that's not the point here.

The USSR proponed 'shadow' expansionism establishing worldwide puppet states through proxy and conventional warfare(With the example being the East Bloc in practice only consisting out of a Soviet military occupation zone with 'governments' set up to fool the people and the world into thinking they were actual states)
The USSR was as well planning for a war with the West which was cut short due to the development of the atomic bomb. Considering the Red Army for example in 1946 being much better equipped and experienced, with the exception being the air force. Also, in the 1950's the USSR would peak above the allied technological standards with the introduction of the T-54/55 and the AK-47. With the Red Army in Europe at the end of 1945 also outnumbering the Allied forces by more than 3:1 there is no way another war starting between 1945 and 1955 would not last at least 10 years and cause much more destruction than the Nazi conquests.

As for your statement about workers, this doctrine of socialism was in practice abolished with the firing of Marshall Kliment Voroshilov which thought that unity and revolutionary spirit was above discipline, organization and training. He was proved wrong by the Nazi invasion, simply there is no way an unorganized mob of workers would overthrow a militarist, strictly organized state such as Nazi Germany. Furthermore, Socialism after 1930 was a typical 3rd-world problem, with the rest of the Socialist movements being strangled and reduced in legitimacy due to them being puppets of the USSR.

The Nazis provided plenty of welfare for the people to enjoy until the war turned against them(1942-1943) which included the first adoption of child subsidies and substantial animal rights.

I agree that Marx was more of a philosopher than a politician. But that just makes the people that think Socialism will work in practice even stupider than they already are.

The USSRs economy did not improve substantially nor was the actual standard of living raised until after World War II. Also, on your statement about "it's either freedom and failing or order and development" this was in practice the heart of the Nazi regime. Unless you didn't know the Nazis were at the foremost in military technology during most of the war. Some examples include these military contraptions(Not limited to them, of course);
- Panzerkampfwagen V Panther(Widely accepted as one of the, if not the best, of the tanks of World War II)
- Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II(Just getting this one to move is a miracle, and it boasts an unbeatable reputation of never having a confirmed penetration of the frontal plate for the duration of the war)
- Heinkel He 179(Jet plane that flew 1939, although at this time Britain was also on par with the Germans in jet engine development)
- Messerschmitt Me 262(Obviously enough, it was the second operational military jet-powered aircraft only coming into production a month later than the British Gloster Meteor. It was also faster and more heavily armed than any allied fighter aircraft in service at the time of introduction, the year 1944)
- Infrared nightvision scopes installed on a handful of Panthers, existing as an attachment to the StG 44 and claimed installation on Tiger IIs.
- StG 44 of course, being the first true 'Assault rifle' the term coming from the name of the rifle (Sturmgewehr), literally meaning Assault Rifle.
- Disputed claims of having achieved the technology required to create nuclear arms, a German submarine intercepted in the pacific contained all the necessary materials, including Uranium.
- V2 rocket
- Last but not least, the Horten Ho 229 which in the 2010s were tested and proved to be almost invisible to 1940's radar systems.

All in all, I praise the Nazi regime for being opportunistic, innovative and practical.
Socialist regimes on the other hand are idealistic, inflexible and mostly failing in practice.

As for your statements about the Kristallnacht and the Nazi purges, read up on the subjects of "Red Terror" and "The Great Purge"