Erdoğan Won The Referandum

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 18.04.2017 at 19:21

كتب بواسطة Khal.eesi, 18.04.2017 at 18:58

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if the people want to be ruled by kings, they should be allowed to.

That works nicely in a free and fair society- Turkey does not fit the description. Turkey can be divided into three groups: about half are anti-Erdogan- the secularist, the Gulenist, hell even the middle class. About 40% are the more conservative and religious elements- a significant group but always kept in check by the secular military (at least until Erdogan nd the Gulenist purged them). I would say the other 10% is supporting Erdogan based off of the lies and propaganda. At the end of the day though, I would hardly say this vote was a resounding yes for a king- Erdogan won by less than 5%. The future of Turkey- specifically the middle class and secularist- did not vote for this. Turkeys three largest cities (Ankara, Istanbul, and Izmir) all voted No (don't forget the first two cities were reliable AKP bastions during Erdogans 15 year reign).

I'm interested though Tunder, do you support the referendum or simply that this is the people's choice and should be respected?

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 18.04.2017 at 09:44

كتب بواسطة Pheonixking929, 17.04.2017 at 14:15

snip

I don't know about turkish TV, but turks were posting 'no' all over the social media and paraded streets, never saw 'yes' movement in reality. The force of 'no' movement was bigger than some propaganda, and yet, 'yes' movement won.

Where did you hear this from? BBC, Economist, Foreign Affairs, and others are saying differently.

كتب بواسطة Pheonixking929, 18.04.2017 at 19:52

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 18.04.2017 at 09:44

كتب بواسطة Pheonixking929, 17.04.2017 at 14:15

snip

I don't know about turkish TV, but turks were posting 'no' all over the social media and paraded streets, never saw 'yes' movement in reality. The force of 'no' movement was bigger than some propaganda, and yet, 'yes' movement won.

Where did you hear this from? BBC, Economist, Foreign Affairs, and others are saying differently.

https://www.rt.com/news/373057-turkey-protests-parliament-teargas/

https://twitter.com/hashtag/hayir
https://www.rt.com/news/385029-turkey-unstamped-ballots-referendum/
https://www.rt.com/news/385115-turkey-protests-referendum-erdogan/

Just like in America and Russia.. complain, complain, complain, repeat elections until i win, then no more protests and screaming.

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 18.04.2017 at 20:31

...complain, complain, complain, repeat elections until i win, then no more protests and screaming.

This is your expert analysis.

I prefer to read some analysis made by the OSCE.

Actually you are just like Trump: a shape-changing lizard.

كتب بواسطة Pheonixking929, 18.04.2017 at 19:51

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 18.04.2017 at 19:21

كتب بواسطة Khal.eesi, 18.04.2017 at 18:58

-

if the people want to be ruled by kings, they should be allowed to.

That works nicely in a free and fair society- Turkey does not fit the description. Turkey can be divided into three groups: about half are anti-Erdogan- the secularist, the Gulenist, hell even the middle class. About 40% are the more conservative and religious elements- a significant group but always kept in check by the secular military (at least until Erdogan nd the Gulenist purged them). I would say the other 10% is supporting Erdogan based off of the lies and propaganda. At the end of the day though, I would hardly say this vote was a resounding yes for a king- Erdogan won by less than 5%. The future of Turkey- specifically the middle class and secularist- did not vote for this. Turkeys three largest cities (Ankara, Istanbul, and Izmir) all voted No (don't forget the first two cities were reliable AKP bastions during Erdogans 15 year reign).

I'm interested though Tunder, do you support the referendum or simply that this is the people's choice and should be respected?

That is the price of democracy. Demagogues grab power, there is eventually an attempt to overthrow them and as the result the Tyrant is either killed or has an excuse to seize more power for himself. The more power a tyrant grabs, the more unstable the system becomes.

I see the referendum as the aftermath of the coup, which happen only because Erdogan has strong-armed the democracy of turkey.

كتب بواسطة Columna Durruti, 18.04.2017 at 23:16

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 18.04.2017 at 20:31

...complain, complain, complain, repeat elections until i win, then no more protests and screaming.

This is your expert analysis.

I prefer to read some analysis made by the OSCE.

Actually you are just like Trump: a shape-changing lizard.

You mean that OSCE which turned blind eye to Ukrainian Army moving into Donbass despite Minsk Agreement was in motion but nicely report and observe Donbass military?



No thanks, i pursue justice and peace, i have no interest in lies made to bring more death and disorder.

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 08:58

No thanks, i pursue justice and peace, i have no interest in lies made to bring more death and disorder.

With Erdogan, Putin and Trump. Really?

كتب بواسطة Columna Durruti, 19.04.2017 at 14:49

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 08:58

No thanks, i pursue justice and peace, i have no interest in lies made to bring more death and disorder.

With Erdogan, Putin and Trump. Really?

Yep, that's the beauty of democracy, because majority votes decide the future leader. If he's bad, people won't vote for him next time, it's simple as that.

I just don't like how prime ministers/premiers/presidents of the government don't have term limit, so they can stay there for decades, and that spot is more powerful than president. But then again, even if we put term limit for premier, won't matter as his likeminded folks will replace him, so policies will be the same.

That's why i go even further and support referendums, best way to exercise people's power. You wanna join Russia? put it on ballot, no annexation required. You wanna ban gays? Sure put it on ballot, no need to beat them when you can outlaw them in the law. You wanna ban immigrants in Germany? Put the issue on referendum, let's see what people have to say.

If you ask me, there would be daily referendums, for most laws parliament try to enact.

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 20:18

If you ask me, there would be daily referendums, for most laws parliament try to enact.

That's what Switzerland does, but the thing is that not all countries have as little population as they do, otherwise organization becomes a relevant issue. Also, effectiveness of a referendum depends in great measure of the interest of people in participating and their level of ignorance... if this were to happen in Spain, I'm not sure what would the consecuences be

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 20.04.2017 at 06:41

That's what Switzerland does, but the thing is that not all countries have as little population as they do, otherwise organization becomes a relevant issue. Also, effectiveness of a referendum depends in great measure of the interest of people in participating and their level of ignorance... if this were to happen in Spain, I'm not sure what would the consecuences be

Switzerland can deal with it not because Switzerland itself is small but because it is federalised and each canton holds it's own referendums. The Rojava federation in Syria is trying to create something similar but it's under threat by foreign parties and it's questionable whether or not they'll succeed.

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 20.04.2017 at 06:41

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 20:18

If you ask me, there would be daily referendums, for most laws parliament try to enact.

That's what Switzerland does, but the thing is that not all countries have as little population as they do, otherwise organization becomes a relevant issue. Also, effectiveness of a referendum depends in great measure of the interest of people in participating and their level of ignorance... if this were to happen in Spain, I'm not sure what would the consecuences be

Well i don't believe in that only small countries can hold referendum. Even China can pull it off, because they vote in their local community, they don't travel to vote. You create 1 polling station in every settlement, so everyone can vote, it's not tough logistics, it's easy. Maybe you mean some big city of 10 millions will take ages to vote, but they are separated into districts, and every district will have few polling stations, so there won't be waiting lines.

You are kind of right about effectiveness of referendum on the measure of people's interest in it, in the issue. For example Greece have mandatory voting, so every elections you know that all of Greece think like they voted. But i don't like that, free voting is better for me, so 80% can ignore it, if 20% voted, election/referendum is over and issue solved, then those who didn't vote have no right to protest if they don't like the results (just like americans protest today against Trump even though only 40% of eligible voters voted).

كتب بواسطة Zephyrusu, 20.04.2017 at 07:13

Switzerland can deal with it not because Switzerland itself is small but because it is federalised and each canton holds it's own referendums. The Rojava federation in Syria is trying to create something similar but it's under threat by foreign parties and it's questionable whether or not they'll succeed.

For real? I absolutely didn't know that about Syria, at all!

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 20.04.2017 at 09:50

كتب بواسطة Zephyrusu, 20.04.2017 at 07:13

Switzerland can deal with it not because Switzerland itself is small but because it is federalised and each canton holds it's own referendums. The Rojava federation in Syria is trying to create something similar but it's under threat by foreign parties and it's questionable whether or not they'll succeed.

For real? I absolutely didn't know that about Syria, at all!

Its fake Just Socialist Kurd propaganda

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 20:18

كتب بواسطة Columna Durruti, 19.04.2017 at 14:49

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 19.04.2017 at 08:58

No thanks, i pursue justice and peace, i have no interest in lies made to bring more death and disorder.

With Erdogan, Putin and Trump. Really?

Yep, that's the beauty of democracy, because majority votes decide the future leader. If he's bad, people won't vote for him next time, it's simple as that.

I just don't like how prime ministers/premiers/presidents of the government don't have term limit, so they can stay there for decades, and that spot is more powerful than president. But then again, even if we put term limit for premier, won't matter as his likeminded folks will replace him, so policies will be the same.

That's why i go even further and support referendums, best way to exercise people's power. You wanna join Russia? put it on ballot, no annexation required. You wanna ban gays? Sure put it on ballot, no need to beat them when you can outlaw them in the law. You wanna ban immigrants in Germany? Put the issue on referendum, let's see what people have to say.

If you ask me, there would be daily referendums, for most laws parliament try to enact.

Majority doesn't mean democracy...

كتب بواسطة Skanderbeg, 20.04.2017 at 08:30

Well i don't believe in that only small countries can hold referendum. Even China can pull it off, because they vote in their local community, they don't travel to vote. You create 1 polling station in every settlement, so everyone can vote, it's not tough logistics, it's easy. Maybe you mean some big city of 10 millions will take ages to vote, but they are separated into districts, and every district will have few polling stations, so there won't be waiting lines.

You are kind of right about effectiveness of referendum on the measure of people's interest in it, in the issue. For example Greece have mandatory voting, so every elections you know that all of Greece think like they voted. But i don't like that, free voting is better for me, so 80% can ignore it, if 20% voted, election/referendum is over and issue solved, then those who didn't vote have no right to protest if they don't like the results (just like americans protest today against Trump even though only 40% of eligible voters voted).

I must say I don't really follow any reasoning, more like an intuition. My logic is like this: if you have a little country, opinions might be homogenous or at least compatible. When big amounts of people participate, opinions can get very distant from each other and different interests might get involved. For example, in China, Tibet clearly has a different perspective than western China, yet they are less people percentage wise, thus meaning that their vote could potentially mean much less and their independece could be in danger. Cantons could clearly solve this by making each canton separate from another yet big countries are not prone to working so decentralized and it could arise many more issues. The most usual situation to happen is that they'd need a central government or something that would enforce their unity and could sometimes overrule each canton's sovereignety, leading to more conflicts of interest and tensions between cantons. In a smaller country with similar interests and personalities, this is harder to happen, thus all conflict can be avoided easierly and work as a unit.

Not sure if this made any sense to you... feel free to tell me what you think

كتب بواسطة Metyu, 20.04.2017 at 09:54

Its fake Just Socialist Kurd propaganda

Hm... politics involved, as always... politics always mean more complexity with such issues

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 20.04.2017 at 10:00

كتب بواسطة Metyu, 20.04.2017 at 09:54

Its fake Just Socialist Kurd propaganda

Hm... politics involved, as always... politics always mean more complexity with such issues

It is a bit too socialist for me but I'd still rather have a Kurdish socialist decentralized state than some lawless or terrorist filled landmass. Here are some articles I read about Rojova in the past that you might find interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/syrian-kurds-murray-bookchin_us_5655e7e2e4b079b28189e3df

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/kurds-rojava-syria-isis-iraq-assad/505037/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?_r=0

R.I.P
Republic of Turkey
October.23.1923-April.16.2017
It was the most beautiful gift given to the Turks, but the Turks finished it.