More Power to Mapmakers

I see this situation exactly similar to facism.When you start giving people power and you see signs of abuse followed by dictatorial behaviour, its always a bad sign.If you can ban anyone for any reason, then you can ban me tommorow also for no reason right?Therefore it is not on my best interest to let you do that.The same thing happened with the Golden dawn nazis, exactly.They were beating immigrants and anarchists left and right.Stupid greeks voted for them, because they couldnt realize that they were next. that a snake who bites others, will eventually bite you also.And when they got more votes, they started beating Greeks too.Let the golden dawn be a lesson to you.Say no to facism!Say no to abuse of power!

كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:32

Stop complaining and actually start giving solutions. For example, I've though about:

We did offer suggestions, mods are greedy and aren't willing to give us slice of the pie.

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كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:32

- Make all the ban list issues transparent. Mods will have to post in the Ban list threat rather than resolve it on secret. So, the community can judge.

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 12:17

the proposal limits the appeal system to that forum section effectively making private proposals invalid, this can allow other map makers to help the fellow map maker gather evidence or to call him out for being silly and misrepresenting map makers.

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 12.01.2015 at 22:26

3.- Status quo: map maker bans can only be challenge in the special forum section dedicated to this matter (private reports don't count)

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كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:32

- Ask the user to talk with the MapMarker first. This doesn't hurt any user. "I've talked with him" is not enough, more SS of conversation should be required, so we all can see what the MapMarker told the guy. If the user didn't got to resolve his issue with the MapMarker, he should post it on the ban list threat.

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 11.01.2015 at 21:18

mods should mind their own business. The people that complain about being ban from a map can always contact the map maker and try to change his mind or make their own damn maps.

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- In those dedicated chases, the decision should be leave up to the community.

كتب بواسطة KYBL, 11.01.2015 at 13:03

If the mapmaker is truly abusing his power on banning people, the market will take its course, and the map will not be played as often as there are either too many bans or people do not think highly of the mapmaker. It is not like the maps made are the only ones available, all of them are easily substituted with another map of similar value.

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كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:32

- Ever better would be, that the MapMarkers actually organize and design their own leaders, not a bunch of "caudillos" (Don't know how to say it on English, but is a popular person of just one part of the country that want to rule over it).

كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:32

-A continuation of the last idea would also be, that the banlist threat get administrated by 6 people. There should be two MapMarkers, two regulated members that are not in MapMarker team nor in Mods team, and two mods. Both the Mods and MapMarker should be as neutral as possible in this type of issue for avoid possible bias.

It could ever work if there was one mod, one MapMarker and one regular person.

I will help you add to the idea of the commite to monitor the appealing system made by pulse

No leader in Map makers committee of course
- Only Map makers ...consisting of Makers who's maps are most played
- Number should be high and odd ...to avoid inactive players
- Offer of course for Columna to be a part of the committee ...to appease the mods
- 1 committee member 1 vote
- When the appeal shows certain there is a dead line in which members must vote
- Total number of members is not necessary for a decision ...and it shouldnt be a total number
- Random members vote on every other appeal to avoid bias and players knowing who will vote on their appeal
- members can be added or changed

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 20:19

I have read the Terms of Service, the F.A.Q , and rules of atwar.
and in none of them says that i am prohibited from doing whatever i want to with my maps or ban list.

so your argument is irrelevant.

It is what you might call a loophole.
The Rules were last updated three years ago. Unless I am disastrously wrong, that predates the ban list.
So, it's about time the Rules be updated to reflect latest changes, eh?

كتب بواسطة International, 13.01.2015 at 21:48

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 20:19

I have read the Terms of Service, the F.A.Q , and rules of atwar.
and in none of them says that i am prohibited from doing whatever i want to with my maps or ban list.

so your argument is irrelevant.

It is what you might call a loophole.
The Rules were last updated three years ago. Unless I am disastrously wrong, that predates the ban list.
So, it's about time the Rules be updated to reflect latest changes, eh?

كتب بواسطة Columna Durruti, 12.01.2015 at 23:31

There are many and you know that. No reason to go into details... some "reasons" given by some respected map-makers:

• Allyfag
  
• NULL
  
• Stinky
  
• You lack the skill to play my maps properly, sorry
  
• Pre-emptive ban for being in the reich
  
• Pre-emptive ban to prevent trolling
  
• My Finger slipped
  
• #Lol
  
• Tried to ally germany as france. Plays tempted rp.

And I could go on...

I think some of these are legit reasons, like Allyfagging, because ally fags are a serious issue in world maps and in games like RP, so of course if i had a map that was ffa and depended on not allying certain factions I would ban players for breaking those rules (that fits with the tried to ally germany as france i would assume). Also the ban for being in reich/ ban to prevent trolling is probably tunder's banlist and it does have some proof, after aetius got back from his vacation he was extremely pissed that tunder and I made "The Death of Rome", so he made some hateful remarks and several days later, Tunder and I played several games where members of the Reich (aetius' clan) left our map/game turn 1 on purpose, several players. So we agreed to ban the reich and its members since Aetius feels the need to be immature and his clan feels the need to follow him to troll our map. It goes along with a grudge but it honestly is kinda warranted judging by the past actions of Aetius and his clan to be dicks about someone else making a good Romanized Map.

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 21:50

كتب بواسطة International, 13.01.2015 at 21:48

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 20:19

I have read the Terms of Service, the F.A.Q , and rules of atwar.
and in none of them says that i am prohibited from doing whatever i want to with my maps or ban list.

so your argument is irrelevant.

It is what you might call a loophole.
The Rules were last updated three years ago. Unless I am disastrously wrong, that predates the ban list.
So, it's about time the Rules be updated to reflect latest changes, eh?

Still predating ban list, i made the point a while ago on this thread or the upvote thread that the rules should be updated then if the mods have a problem with our system, since the rules have nothing against map makers doing this

كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:58

Actually I think that the majority of the map makers are represented by the people speaking, and this is the forums, map makers are encouraged to speak on here about their views, and so are mods, just because only desu and columna will talk on this matter (and acqui and others making references in other threads) doesnt mean I can not say that they are the only mods here, I understand, but if the other mods remain silent (for whatever reason) then there is no point to complain that we are not listening to all the mods views. If other mods want to take stances and suggest opinions I would love to hear it, but I can not sit here and not talk about the moderation staff as a whole when only 2 mods dare to speak publicly about the issue. This makes me think that other mods have opinions but that they differ from Columna and Desu so they do not share it because it could cause division among the mods, but I do not think that is the right idea, if other mods have opinions I do support them sharing it, even if I do not agree with it, that is what the forums are for afterall.

This is quite interesting.

I don't know what was considered, or even if it was, regarding ownership of maps made. I used to make mods for Halo 1. I had total control (within the limits of the game) to do what I wanted. That said, the game creators did not have direct contact with the modding community. We treated each others map (mod) as their intellectual property (within the modding community) and if we used another mapmakers idea, tags (files), etc, we were sure to give them credit. Plagiarism was frowned on.

As mapmakers we have paid for the ability to do so. In addition we spend our time; which has monetary value, in order to create these maps and scenarios. We don't seek compensation, nor do we get any. What we do is completely altruistic. Sure we often enter into rivalries over who came up with and idea, or who is getting more plays, better borders, etc. But at its core we just want to create things that we and by extension everyone else want to play. With that we have to be very creative within the framework of what has been given to us in order to create the gameplay experience we are striving for. Often this requires us to instate our own rules and restriction in addition to those stipulated by the base game.

Some players are prone to exploit the framework we have set forward in our custom map and scenario, this goes outside what we originally intended. Our only recourse to keep this experience fun for the MAJORITY of players is to create banlists, and rules stipulating the circumstances under which a player be added to it. It is true that some maps have much stricter rules then others, but that depends on the world crafting philosophy taken by an individual mapmaker.

Now I have made maps since almost the beginning, I'm certainly not the best mapmaker, but I truly enjoy it. I love building something thats mine, from my imagination, and then gathering perspectives form those that play it so I can make it better. 7 Years War is my best known work. At the time of writing this it has 1725 plays (scenario). I have never instated a banlist for this scenario, but I do understand why my colleagues would for their own.

I do think it is time mapmakers organized themselves. Something along the lines of a medieval Guild or a modern Union. Some days it seems like the players who don't create demand an awful lot from us. Considering how we essentially volunteer considerable amount of time and money, this is mildly shocking.

I support my colleagues, and politely request that all parties participate in a measured dialogue. I will take action with my colleagues if this isn't addressed.

كتب بواسطة Bellerophon, 13.01.2015 at 23:20

I do think it is time mapmakers organized themselves. Something along the lines of a medieval Guild or a modern Union. Some days it seems like the players who don't create demand an awful lot from us. Considering how we essentially volunteer considerable amount of time and money, this is mildly shocking.

I support my colleagues, and politely request that all parties participate in a measured dialogue. I will take action with my colleagues if this isn't addressed.

Yeah we tried and some people just can not work together (looks at tunder and adog and their fag followers)

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 21:50

Alright. I concede the point.

The ban list was implemented late July, so the rule changes are still before the implementation, though.

كتب بواسطة Guest, 14.01.2015 at 01:05

The thing is.... We paid to create our maps.. we paid actual money to create something which normal atwar players could play for fun and enjoy and in return Admin's and maybe moderators earn money off of that, Like what is fair in this? we paid for something basically in return it makes atwar money but we don't get full power over it yet we put the hours into ?? Like correct me if I'm wrong but this is just extremely unfair... My map has 6 rules and if you don't abide by them and you break one of them it's simply.. You're banned. It's my map I shouldn't have to explain my bans and I defiantly shouldn't be threatened into removing everyone off of my banlist because some 8 year old cried his heart out that he didn't get his daily dose of RP which is somehow unfair.. Honestly I have so many maps in the works but at this moment I don't want to finish any of them if the mods are going to allow little kids to abuse them.. Also the moderators didn't delete my thread.. I removed it simply to stop everyone from constantly mailing me....

Can I abuse my children/pets? I cannot, even though they are mine. Mapmakers do not have unlimited authority, as you are limited by rule ONE

كتب بواسطة Guest, 14.01.2015 at 01:05

The thing is.... We paid to create our maps.. we paid actual money to create something which normal atwar players could play for fun and enjoy and in return Admin's and maybe moderators earn money off of that, Like what is fair in this? we paid for something basically in return it makes atwar money but we don't get full power over it yet we put the hours into ?? Like correct me if I'm wrong but this is just extremely unfair... My map has 6 rules and if you don't abide by them and you break one of them it's simply.. You're banned. It's my map I shouldn't have to explain my bans and I defiantly shouldn't be threatened into removing everyone off of my banlist because some 8 year old cried his heart out that he didn't get his daily dose of RP which is somehow unfair.. Honestly I have so many maps in the works but at this moment I don't want to finish any of them if the mods are going to allow little kids to abuse them.. Also the moderators didn't delete my thread.. I removed it simply to stop everyone from constantly mailing me....

Sure. If a player breaks one of the map's rules, you are entitled to ban them. I seriously don't think that's disputed.
It is merely requested that you produce enough evidence to justify the ban, should a moderator come knocking. A nice screenshot will do. Keep one for each player in your ban list. Unless your computer is decades old, it shouldn't take up that much storage space.

Other than that, as the above poster mentioned, ownership does not entitle you to perfect control.

كتب بواسطة Guest, 14.01.2015 at 01:05

The thing is.... We paid to create our maps.. we paid actual money to create something which normal atwar players could play for fun and enjoy and in return Admin's and maybe moderators earn money off of that, Like what is fair in this? we paid for something basically in return it makes atwar money but we don't get full power over it yet we put the hours into ?? Like correct me if I'm wrong but this is just extremely unfair... My map has 6 rules and if you don't abide by them and you break one of them it's simply.. You're banned. It's my map I shouldn't have to explain my bans and I defiantly shouldn't be threatened into removing everyone off of my banlist because some 8 year old cried his heart out that he didn't get his daily dose of RP which is somehow unfair.. Honestly I have so many maps in the works but at this moment I don't want to finish any of them if the mods are going to allow little kids to abuse them.. Also the moderators didn't delete my thread.. I removed it simply to stop everyone from constantly mailing me....

I still don't get it... if you know a guy broke a rule, why can't you provide a proof.....??? oh come on, for god sake... it's not that hard... I support having a ban list but letting every map maker ban according to their own opinions upon other people is just scary! I may be able to trust one or two of them, but not everyone... The ban list can be awsome when properly used but harmful when abused... We all know it's a map made by your brain and fingers but... this is a game... you talk about maps as if they were your personal real life property, like a house. Banning a guy from a map for no reason is just wrong when it comes to gaming, you're limiting his hability to have fun.

Are there that many rule breakers to have an insane amount of ss to save??

What if you guys made a post with all the ss? Is it that bad of an idea?

كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:58

-A continuation of the last idea would also be, that the banlist threat get administrated by 6 people. There should be two MapMarkers, two regulated members that are not in MapMarker team nor in Mods team, and two mods. Both the Mods and MapMarker should be as neutral as possible in this type of issue for avoid possible bias.

Goddamit Clovis ...this was our agenda from the start, we started working on the idea of Map makers taking care of appeals and Columna dorutti being as a mod the part of that Map makers appeal team.

Are you on this? ...did someone message you about our plan -.-

Nevermind ...your on it now, welcome to the revolution xD

كتب بواسطة Bellerophon, 13.01.2015 at 23:20

Some days it seems like the players who don't create demand an awful lot from us.

I don't mean to start a new argument but I'm curious... What do people demand from you??

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 14.01.2015 at 04:38

كتب بواسطة Bellerophon, 13.01.2015 at 23:20

Some days it seems like the players who don't create demand an awful lot from us.

I don't mean to start a new argument but I'm curious... What do people demand from you??

Nice one... I thought the original argument was almost over!

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 04:57

Nice one... I thought the original argument was almost over!

Oh come on, I'm being serious here... I just wanted to know

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 14.01.2015 at 04:59

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 04:57

Nice one... I thought the original argument was almost over!

Oh come on, I'm being serious here... I just wanted to know

Ahhh, I'm just messing with you. I'm pretty curious to see his response as well.

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 05:09

Ahhh, I'm just messing with you. I'm pretty curious to see his response as well.

OH COME ON!! That's not the right thing to do! Now I get to be more curious....

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 14.01.2015 at 05:10

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 05:09

Ahhh, I'm just messing with you. I'm pretty curious to see his response as well.

OH COME ON!! That's not the right thing to do! Now I get to be more curious....

Now i'm just hoping a mod doesn't lock this topic... or else I might just ...

كتب بواسطة clovis1122, 13.01.2015 at 20:58

Four, Mods are pretty old, most of them support a weird view of "competitive" environment. [b]Be sure that Nor Desu nor Columna's words represent the mayority of the Moderator's words [...]

I've been reading this thread for a while, but I didn't feel the urge to step into the discussion so far. But I want to publicy support CD's and Desu's point of view.

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 05:19

Now i'm just hoping a mod doesn't lock this topic... or else I might just ...

AGH! Stop it! I hate you!
Don't give them more ideas or I shall silence you!!

Banned from all my nonexistent maps

كتب بواسطة RaulPB, 14.01.2015 at 05:24

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 05:19

Now i'm just hoping a mod doesn't lock this topic... or else I might just ...

AGH! Stop it! I hate you!
Don't give them more ideas or I shall silence you!!

Banned from all my nonexistent maps

HEY! Take it easy, I'm sure others are curious too! Don't make me report you to the mods!

They will take away your banning privileges for abuse!!!!! I WILL DO IT!!!!

كتب بواسطة theFuehrer, 14.01.2015 at 05:45

HEY! Take it easy, I'm sure others are curious too! Don't make me report you to the mods!

They will take away your banning privileges for abuse!!!!! I WILL DO IT!!!!

You wouldn't dare... I want a fair trial! I demand the admins to be there so that you can get perma-banned! I did not abuse my powers, it's a completely fair ban and everyone here is my witness! You're being a liar, you shall get punished for your crimes!

كتب بواسطة Abraham, 13.01.2015 at 20:13

All of this meaningless debate... There is no question the maps makers should be fully responsible for their map without an appeal from the board of moderators since these mods aren't the ones that dedicated their time, work, and thinking every second of their time to make these maps playable. It's true that some map makers ban people without reason but that is their map. What can mod do? Nothing. It's not their product. Map makers of any map can do whatever they wants with their map as long as the admins didn't add rule that says otherwise

Hdrakon supports me! I win, gg

كتب بواسطة Guest, 14.01.2015 at 02:22

Can I abuse my children/pets? I cannot, even though they are mine. Mapmakers do not have unlimited authority, as you are limited by rule ONE

Your analogy is irrelevant because maps are not living things

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 14.01.2015 at 07:23

كتب بواسطة Guest, 14.01.2015 at 02:22

Can I abuse my children/pets? I cannot, even though they are mine. Mapmakers do not have unlimited authority, as you are limited by rule ONE

Your analogy is irrelevant because maps are not living things

Neither are children property ...and i have to say im very concerned about some people expressing that kind of views over here

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

كتب بواسطة Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 15:01

And as i stated before, you literally do what i say you do. You only give a fuck because the noobs go and spam you into talking with the map maker. You could give 0 fucks if they play the map or not, all you care is they don't report anymore.

What is the problem? Moderators are supposed to at least take notice of something when someone complains or reports. I don't only care about if someone stops reporting, I'd rather know people actually use the report button/command when it's needed.

So it has already been establish:
-you don't care if they play the map or not
-you only want to limit the ban function because some kids are reporting some map makers
-if people didn't reported you would careless if the ban function was limited or not.

This is just telling me that the only reason you care about this issue is because A) the reports annoy you, and B) you want to extend your mod influence.

Debating with you its pointless, as its impossible to change the mind of a person that only debates for personal interest.

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

Neither of those questions are in the OP. The OP is asking for map makers to be free of moderation and stating false claims of how moderators are abusing their power. We are replying. I'll give you a bit to chew on for your questions anyway.

But your responses are ambiguous and full of unnecessary text to make them look like they have more content.

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

All you've been doing is circling trying to speak of ownership when it's clear as day. You own the maps, you can hide/delete them, and you can ban people you believe don't deserve to play your map.

This clarification actually makes our side stronger

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

You do not control the game you play, and when someone disagrees with you, please back yourself up.

No, but i control my map and i decide who plays it or not.

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

You ask, "Who is more important, a troll or a map maker?" and the answer is obviously the map maker. However, assumed trolls could also be innocent, and we do not know for sure. You can rectify this by showing a simple screen shot. Most trouble makers won't be complaining about being banned from a game, they usually know what they did wrong. Only those trying to get out of punishment or are actually innocent will complain. Again, we cannot be sure which one they are, but we know both exist.

Why does it matter? Is not your map, is mine. I am the one that decides who plays or not, you stated that you don't care if they play, so why would you care now?

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

You say, "All you are doing is throwing the ball to me, while ignoring my points," but you do this exact statement to an even greater degree. I've went and answered and ruled out a lot of points here, all of which I've proven my stance and the official stance on this topic.

No, your only 2 points are quite irrelevant:
"The rules are there"
"I get reports and i don't like that to happen anymore"


The rules are open to interpretation, and i see no reports in the appeal forum section.

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

Go around and gather points I have not covered in all my former posts. Quote them to me. I will answer and dismantle every single one, then allowing for one page of replies I shall close this thread as it will have been discussed to death.

That is your job, plenty of people have posted different points for a side or another, you are only attacking mine because i have the weakest debating skills of all the other map makers.

كتب بواسطة Desu, 13.01.2015 at 15:34

By the point of closure you will have shouted your opinions, and I shall go clarify the official rules in response. Nothing will really change, as Pulse had made the ban list rules clear months ago, but I will be adding these same guidelines to the official post.

Official rules? Your interpretation of the rules are not liked by the map makers as they are bias against us.

Map makers should get paid for their maps and contribution to an other boring game without all these interesting well made map then if they decide to sell the maps to aw aw will be able to do as they please with the maps.
problem solved ty yw and if i dont see u good morning afternoon good evening and good night.

(deleted by chill)